hormone help

[big calvin]

ok i have a couple of questions that i was hoping you guys could help me with.

1. i take synthroid for my hypothyroidism , 0.10mg this is 100mcg correct? ok now i have been doing research and asking some people and they all pretty much say that syn. isnt that good and try to use cytomel. i have asked my doctor about it and he says dont worry about it. i do! so i can get from a pharmacy that sells no script is like a good friend if the family so its ok. but if i do switch to cytomel because its 4 times stronger mg per mg. should i use 25mcg?

2. i also take glucavance, 500mg twice a day. now this is to control my diabetes but i have already very very high liver enzymes and half of the pill is glucophage and that holds glucose in my liver so my blood sugar is lower. but wouldnt that just mess up my liver even more? the other half of the pill is anvandia which makes my body more sensitive to insulin. now my dad got me avandia because i told him this and i have been taking it for the past couple days and my sugar is high. should i go back on glucovance? glucovance does work alot better in lowering my sugar. it was normally at 100 or below. but now im finding it again at 280-420. if i go back on glucovance would can i take for my liver?

3. last question :D, ok my testosterone levels are very low for my age. my total testosterone was 210 and the normal index that was should was 220-800. now im 18 years old! and my testosterone is that low! i was planing on trying supplements but again some people have told me to try clomid for a couple weeks. but sence my natural testosterone is low would using clomid just bring it up for the time im using it? or would it work as a "kick start" to becomeing more normal?

i know i should talk to my doctor about these things but hes just the old school doctors that are really A holes. u know the type? and because he already knows me and i have been going to him for a while now ..i just dont know to change. he already knows me and whats going on....

thanks guys.

[Tryska]

Originally posted by big calvin
ok i have a couple of questions that i was hoping you guys could help me with.

1. i take synthroid for my hypothyroidism , 0.10mg this is 100mcg correct? ok now i have been doing research and asking some people and they all pretty much say that syn. isnt that good and try to use cytomel. i have asked my doctor about it and he says dont worry about it. i do! so i can get from a pharmacy that sells no script is like a good friend if the family so its ok. but if i do switch to cytomel because its 4 times stronger mg per mg. should i use 25mcg?



I wanna take a shot at this one. ummm....yes your synthroid dosage is 100mcg. Secondly, how do you feel on this dosage? you can't just swap out T4 for T3. It doesn't quite work that way....you could do a T4/T3 combo, which would be synthroid and cytomel, or something like Armour Thyroid. But your gonna wanna have both in there. It's very hard to find a doctor that can do a T3 therapy only, let alone well, and with your thyroid already compromised, you don't want to risk blowing it all the way out by trying to treat yourself. So how do you feel on this dosage? are your symptoms alleviated at all? where are your lab results? TSH and Total T4 in particular. Total T3 if you got it. You may have a T4/T3 conversion problem, or you may just be listening to too much advice from too many different people.

[big calvin]

ok my lab report for tsh after synthroid is :

TSH : 2.51 MICRO IU/ML
T4 : 8.3 MCG/DL

i feel fine on it. see i can really tell if im getting sides from this or just cause im obese u know? like if my chest hurts is that cause i have to lose weight or this? i dont think its the thyroid. i havent tested my T3 free and total yet. i told my doc to do it but he didnt .(A HOLE!) i heard about that thryoid u said ...armour in a will brink artical...maybe i should try telling him if thats ok to use....

[Tryska]

i'm sorry...i shoulda actually asked for your free T4 (do you have that number handy?)

i hope billy sees this and pipes up too. Off hand, I would say you are undermedicated with the T4...your TSH is still kinda high. Most good endos look to get your TSH between 1 and 2. the closer to 1 or under the better. He should probably bump your synthroid dosage up a bit more. and take those T3 tests too.

you should try adding guggul and maca, like i had mentioned in your journal as well, cal.

[big calvin]

sweet! thanks thyska! well if i bump up the thyroid would i really need the guggle? also the maca, i have been taking it on and off i know i should take it regularlly and i'll start.

i also have some other #'s for u and the others maybe u can see something i dont...

LH : 6.6 MIU/ML
T4,TOTAL : 8.3 MCH/DL
FSH: 3.2 MIU/ML
WHITE BLOOD CELL COUNT: 9.3 THOUS/MCL
RED BLOOD CELL COUNT: 5.16 MILL/MCL
UREA NITROGEN: 19 MG/DL
CREATININE: 1.0 MG/DL
SODIUM: 140 MEQ/L
POTASSIUM: 4.4 MEQ/L
CARBON DIOXIDE: 22 MEQ/L
CALCIUM: 9.1 MG/DL
PROTEIN,TOTAL: 7.1 G/DL
ALBUMIN: 4.1 G/DL
GLOBULIN: 3.0 G/DL
ALBUMIN/GLOBULIN RATIO: 1.4 (CALC)
TESTOSTERONE,TOTAL: 210 NG/DL
TESTOSTERONE,FREE: 49 PG/ML
TESTOSTERONE,FREE AND WEAKLY BOUND: 88 NG/DL

[Tryska]

well...I'm good with thyroid panels and not much else. It would help if you could put your lab's ranges with those figures though, so we can tell more easily just where you are setting, in the face of "normal" on those values.

As for the guggul, yeah it will help with the bumped up dosage, because of it's T3/T4 conversion enhancing properties. That way, with the extra T4 floating around, you can better convert it to T3 naturally, and you might could skip the additional T3 altogether, which makes for one less med, and less of a reliance on meds int he long run.

and in regards to Maca. take it, and take it regularly. It will support your adrenal function, which in turn will help your thyroid meds (AND your pancreas) work more effectively. And also regulate testosterone. remember, most people who are hypo, are also hypoadrenal. You can usually tell if that's the case if when you take a dosage bump, you feel good for a couple days, and then feel real run down for another couple weeks or so. It's cuz your adrenals are trying to catch up with the extra thyroid hormone speeding up your system.

[Quadzilla]

hey T! i'm still waiting ever so patiently for my 11/23 doctor appt. I called the other day to get on a waiting list because i'm getting to excited for it and I just want that day to be here...NOW! All of my hopes are relying on the endo to be able to treat me and kick start my metabolism into working again.

How's it going for you? Still seeing some weight loss results??? :)

[Tryska]

hey quadz yeah...cutting is finally going smoothly...after a long time of nothing....I'm quite pleased with it. and just hang in there for your appointment, if you can get in earlier, go for it though. I'm sure this endo will be able to help you out. :)

[Severed Ties]

Personally I'd recommend finding a Doctor that will switch you from t-4 (synthroid) to t-3(cytomel). Their is a large body of research that shows far superior benefits to cytomel use over synthroid. t-3 is the far more important thyroid hormone, but because of how the pharmacutical industry is doctors are pushed to perscribe synthroid because the drug companies really just want to fill their pockets. The goal of synthroid supplementation is it indirectly increase t-3, which in itself is assinine, it's like offering prohormones for testosterone replacemnt. Doctors keep jacking up the t-4 dose until enough gets converted into t-3, which incidentally drives your drug cost way up. By direct t-3 supplementation you can establish a healthy and consistant level of t-3.

Second you low testosterone levels are tied to your low t-3 functions. I don't have the studies off hand but it has been firmly established the direct correlation of low t-3 to low levels of T. Funny enough Testosterone remains low in the presence of sufficient t-4, once again furthuring the evidence for t-3 supplementation. This is also why people how suffer from hypothyroidism typically suffer from symptoms of low Testosterone....because their Testosterone IS low however this is usually never addressed by doctors who simply associate the side effect with low throid function and never bother to investigate why.

Now you can look for a new doctor who is willing to work with your thyroid functions or you can try to cut your t-4 dose in half and add 12.5 mcg/day of cytomel and simply get your functions rechecked and compare your 2 profiles as well as see how you feel overall. My recommendation is to go the doctor route because you may well need 25 mcg/day of t-3 since 12.5mcg can be used by people without throid problems without invoking the a thyroid reduction but you don't want to much t-3 either, hence monitering by a doctor to establish the best possible does for you.

If your testosterone is still low after your t-3 in in a better range and your looking for a way to pick it up I'd recommend Clomid and or a low dose of arimidex. If that doesn't help then try a course of HCG before you go on replacment. T replacement should only be used as a last option.

ST

[Tryska]

great response severed ties. I still think it's hard to find a doctor that can treat with T-3 only, but i agree that if he can't talk some sense into his doc, he should look for a new one.

[Bullrider Billy]

If I repeat anything anyone said, forgive me. It looks like you guys pretty much covered everything. I'll throw out as much as I know...

As Tryska said, .100mg is 100mcg (just move the decimal 3 places to convert back and forth). The only time I've read of someone on T3 only is when they have high T4 but low T3. It says they are not converting T4 to T3 well. T4 is the storage form of thyroid hormone, T3 is the biologically active form that is actually used in the cells. When they need T3, an iodine molecule is stripped off T4 to convert it to T3.

Again, as Tryska said, most people seem to feel best when TSH is 1-2, and T4 and T3 are in the upper 1/3 of the lab range. Usually you can see an improvement with a week or two of starting medication, but it can take up to 8 weeks for you to feel normal. That's why blood test are often 8 weeks or so apart.

Synthroid is not the only T4 out there. I am on Levoxyl; there is also Unithroid, Levothroid, and others that are marketed in other countries. Cytomel is the only synthetic T3 marketed in the US. Armour, as you may know, is a combo T4/T3 derived from dessicated pig thyroid. The manufacturer only guarantees standardization of the T4/T3 components, but being naturally derived, it contains the full spectrum of naturally occurring thyroid hormones (there are actually about 10 or so) and other goodies.

Your testosterone does sound low, but that is most likely an effect of the thyroid. I thought mine was low too, at 241. It has gone up to 357, but my endo says that may very well be normal for me; I'm 44 and we don't have any record of my test. level when I was younger. Again, go by the symptoms. The pituitary/thyroid/adrenal/gonad axis is tightly interconnected. Jostle one, and they are all affected.

Funny enough Testosterone remains low in the presence of sufficient t-4, once again furthuring the evidence for t-3 supplementation. This is also why people how suffer from hypothyroidism typically suffer from symptoms of low Testosterone....because their Testosterone IS low however this is usually never addressed by doctors who simply associate the side effect with low throid function and never bother to investigate why.

Amen to that! My T4 was very high, yet my test. was low.

Btw, scary warning for the day... DO NOT increase medication on your own, or in mid-blood test cycle. Increasing medication without carefully monitoring it (and knowing signs what to look for) can make you wind up poisoning yourself. It's called thyrotoxicosis. I increased my medication without my doctor's knowledge or approval; I started feeling great, but then went downhill. My endo said that's the pattern in being overmedicated on thyroid hormone.

I'm about 2-3 weeks away from my next blood test (8 weeks between); I'm only now beginning to feel good. I have less fatigue and my weights are increasing dramatically. I still have some residual fatigue and windedness in running, but several sources attribute that to thyroid.

[Tryska]

wow..i've learned something new too. thanks Billy. that bit on thyrotoxicosis will definitely keep me from messing around with my meds (as i am wont to do...*lol*)

[Bullrider Billy]

Yep, I learned the hard way. Not only did I mess with my dose, I messed with it mid-blood test cycle. I basically set myself back by about 14 weeks... my endo corrected my dose and said to wait 6 weeks for a blood test. After that blood test he said to wait another 8 weeks at a yet lower dose because my TSH was too low. So, I went from 150 mcg of Levoxyl to 225 to 300 (my doing :rolleyes: ) to 225 and now to my present 200 mcg.

I'm dying to try Biotest's T2, but oh no! tuttut Not until I get a blood test, see the results, and see how I feel in 3 weeks. It only takes this cowboy once :angel:

[big calvin]

thank you guys for all this info!

here is what im gonna do:

diabetes:
wait till i atleast have 2 weeks on low carbs before switching meds.

thyroid:
gonna go check my blood work again and then see if my t3 is low or not. if not then no need to change. if so then there is a need to change.(most likly to armour)

test:
if my t3 is fine then work on clom/arimidex cycle. if t3 isnt fine then dont do anything for test for another 8 weeks to see if it is my t3 connected.

liver:
use milk thristle and hope for the best.

thank you all so much again! really helped me out.

[Tryska]

sounds good.....but...i'd still think about bumping the synthroid up some.....it might resolve the test problem, if you've got enough T4 floating around in your system to convert to a good T3 level, you know what i mean?

[big calvin]

yeah i know, but if im taking 100mcg then what do i do add 1/2 a pill or 2? my aunt takes synthroid also and she lost weight but increaseing it to very very high levels! but now she looks like sick(dont worry she lowered it) and like i told her if only she used it more wisely....u know she just ate almost nothing,took more T4, and drank coffe like it was water! yeah she lost weigh but she doesnt "look" better just like skinny and sick...i told her if only she ate more protein and atleast cut the coffe to once a day maybe she would be more toned and not just like loose....lol

anyways u gave me an idea....sence i already take T4 and i have cytomel at hand...maybe 1/2 a tab cytomel and continue with the synthroid....

[Bullrider Billy]

If you're going to add Cytomel to a synthetic T4, you have to lower the dosage of T4. Otherwise you will be overmedicated. Remember that Cytomel is 4x more potent than T4. So if you are on 100mcg of Synthroid and want to add Cytomel, decrease the Synthroid to 75 mcg and add 6.25 mcg of Cytomel (6.25 x 4 = 25). Here is a little chart that can help determine dosages...

T4 only plus T3 only meds (eg. Unithroid, Synthroid (FDA) plus Cytomel) with 90% T4 and 10% T3 (which is about the ratio of hormone the normal thyroid produces)

25mcg of T4+ 2.5mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 35mcg
50mcg of T4 + 5mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 70mcg
75mcg of T4 + 7.5mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 105mcg
100mcg of T4 + 10mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 140mcg
112mcg of T4 + 11.2mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 156.8mcg (try to cut that pill!)
125mcg of T4 + 12.5mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 175mcg
137mcg of T4 + 13.7mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 191.8mcg (another strange dose)
150mcg of T4 + 15mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 210mcg
175mcg of T4 + 17.5mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 245mcg
200mcg of T4 + 20mcg of T3 = T4 equivilent of 280mcg


Alternatively, Dr Ridha Arem, author of The Thyroid Solution says that he determined that in general an average person needs 10 micrograms of synthetic T3 to achieve the best symptom relief and that is very close to the amount that a normal thyroid gland produces each day for most people (6-10 micrograms).

So if you're going to add Cytomel, start with a very small dose. Symptoms of too much T3 are headaches, palpitations, sweats, nervousness, etc.

[Tryska]

yeah i think Arem's got a dosage table in his book to no? great info billy!

[Wizard]

Great info Billy and Severed Ties.
:thumbup:

[Tryska]

oh one other point, if your adding cytomel in.....split your dosage through the day....cytomel is pretty fast-acting, and the half life is 3-4 hours...you'll feel better splitting it through the day, then taking it all in one shot.

[Severed Ties]

Actually Tryska I'm gonna have to disagree with you their, or at least partially anyway, while cytomel is fairly fast acting and the drugs half-like may very well be only 3-4 hours because of how the body "recycles" (stripes and reforms) t-3 and t-4 the activity time in the body of circulating t-3 is actually over 24 hours, in fact blood test can show elevated t-3 up to 48 hours after administration...mind you after around the 24 hours mark t-3 levels fall rapidly and are only trace amounts at the 48 hour mark. In general I agree to always didvide up doses throughout the day but with thyroid meds 1 dose a day is fine however, 2x a day would be optimal to maintain the most consistant levels....mind you their is nothing with dividing doses further except for the convience factor. :D

ST

[Tryska]

mmmm...i'm gonna have to go with Dr. Arem on this one severed ties. once a day maybe all well and good for T-4, but with T3 i would still divide the doses......makes it easier to get up in the mornings.

[Severed Ties]

Thats all fine and well Tryska, their will always be large amount of debate among the medical community. And if you are speaking from experience I will conceed that blood panels do not always carry over properly to real world results, I can only say that I know people who use a once or twice a day protocol without a problem. But as the infomercials say "individual results will vary" and to follow whatever protocol your doctor designs when such is the case.

[MWB]

I remeber reading somewhere that t3 has a halflife of 3 days, but t3 levels peak after 4 hours upon taking it.

[Tryska]

you might actually be right MWB, and I used the wrong terminology. I know that it's fast acting....and does peak in about 3-4 hours. and that people that have it added in to there med therapy, tend to feel best if splitting the dosage through the day, rather then all at one shot.

[Severed Ties]

AAAAAAWWWWW I just get no credit. The Severed one disagrees with the half-life and MWB gets all the credit....Tryska you just don't like me do you:cry: I see how it is....A guy just misses ONE Toga party and now he's blackballed....we'll see if I invite you to the Thanksgiving orgy......if the turkey smells like fish....it's cause you ain't eating turkey.:D


ST

[Tryska]

*lol* i wasn't disagreeing with you man...and you get your props....i just didn't have much to say on your post.....and mwb kinda put it more succinctly. you are kinda right though. Whilst we may disagree on splitting up T3, entirely, I do agree that if you are to split it up, for ease of use, it should be two doses. One in the morning, one before bed....

[big calvin]

thank you to all you guys!! i didnt think this post would get so much respounce!!

i still have one question, why would i decrease synthroid just so i could use some cytomel? cause it would mean my thyroid hormones are higher right? isnt that what im trying to do? like if i drop my SYN to 75mcg and takin in 6.5mcg CYTO then would it be the same thing as taking 100mcg of t4? wouldnt taking my normal dosage of SYN + a very small amount of CYTO(6.5mcg-12.5mcg). that would be better correct?

like instead of just upping SYN to like 125mcg-150mcg i would just add CYTO to make up that 25mcg-50mcg that SYN would make up. u guys get what im saying?

ohh and about the timing of it...hmmm im not sure about this cause it reminds me about my insulin use days...where some insulin is slow and some are fast. some peak at 1 hour and some peak in 6 hours...i think that because i depend on how i feel with diet,diabetes,etc. that small dosages would help me "feel" better. i may be wrong but i dont want to cause anything that makes me feel worse u know?

thank you guys again. man this forum rules!!

[Tryska]

well cal....just to state for the record, i really wish you wouldn't go about adding T3 in yourself, without your docs guidance because it can get sticky, but here goes:

the reaosn you add T3 in, is not necessarily to "increase your thyroid hormone levels" (in your case) as it is to increase the amount of active T3 in your system. The reason to do this would be if you had a T4/T3 onversion problem, which you don't know that you have. Like i said before, judging fromt he lab results you have shown, you are undermedicated on T4 IMO. If it were me, i would get my Free T3 levels checked, if there were no conversion problems, i would get a bump on my T4 dosage,and if there were conversion problems i would then think about adding in T3.

as billy said ealrier....T4 is the storage form of thyroid hormine. take an iodine away and you have T3 which is the metabolically active form of hormone. If you add additional T3 into your bloodstream, you will need less T4, because all of that storage space isn't necessary. If you don't lower the T4 and just add T3 haphazardly, you risk making yourself go hyper (which is not all it's cracked up to be, and may give you a heart attack) or have the issues that Billy experienced when he upped his meds on his own. i thought you had learned your lesson earlier, when you messed with other drugs, and wound up diabetic. If you mess with your thyroid levels, you will hose yourself even more. First try the path of least resistance......get your T3 tests run, see if there is a conversion problem, if you don't have one...bump the T4 and let your body convert it to T3 naturally. despite everything, more drugs DOES NOT = better, and don't ever let anyone convince you otherwise.

[big calvin]

ohh i know my first step in my TO DO LIST is blood work so i can see IF i need anything.

i for sure learned my leason! and the only way i would just go and up my meds would be if my doc said it was ok or another doc said it was ok. dont worry tryska this big guy has learned his leason ;)

thank you.

[Severed Ties]

Tryska it's cool I know we weren't really debating anything, I just felt the need ta bust on ya.....cause well....I'm a d!ck :D

Big Cal you seem to have a good understanding of what you want to do, so now all you gotta do is go do it. I still contend that t-3 supplementation is a far superior treatment for hypothyroidism and I think in 5 years or so this will be widely accepted. But regardless just remember that Doctors are like shoes....if they don't fit your needs anymore, it's time to get new ones.

If you do find you need to look for a new doctor, look for ones that are also in the field of longevity and alternative medicines, they are much more forthcoming with helping you achieve optimal hormone levels as opposed to adequite hormone levels

[big calvin]

thanks man.

ill keep u guys posted, just look in my journal to see when i do get my results...

thanks.

[Reinier]

-help- there were more big words i dont know in this thread than ive encountered in 4 years of high school....:help:

[big calvin]

lol!